Strategic AI Partnership & Vatican Technology Discussion

Date: June 7, 2025
Participants: Gary Sheng, Mark Baciak
Format: Phone conversation
Context: Strategic collaboration discussion between Gary and Mark, who first met at Vatican City conference in May 2024 and collaborated on Vatican AI projects in second half of 2024

Executive Summary

This transcript captures a comprehensive strategic discussion between Gary Sheng and Mark Baciak covering Vatican AI initiatives, religious technology market opportunities, and potential partnerships around advanced AI development. Mark reveals his deep Vatican connections, including direct access to Archbishop Timothy Dolan and recent crisis management success with Vatican officials. The conversation explores Mark's "Sacred Matrices" religious AI platform concept, his meta-AI model development, and Gary's introduction of Dr. Lael Alexander as a potential collaboration partner. Key themes include multi-faith technology platforms, the intersection of religious institutions and AI, and the formation of next-generation AI startups targeting major industry competition.

Key Themes and Strategic Developments

1. Vatican Political Navigation and Crisis Management Success

Thompson Debrief and Relationship Maintenance: Mark's recent extensive Vatican contact reconnection:

"I actually had a call that Thompson yesterday. It was actually a pretty long call... I got caught up in all the happenings for the last six months at the Vatican and he was doing one and why, and what happened to this person that person"

Crisis Intervention and Documentation: Mark's successful navigation of Vatican internal politics:

"I saved his ass... I gave them all the receipts, so I made the uh I made the conversation uh very hard to adore. It's like, hey, here's weight and wrong, and this is the right thing to do."

Political Sensitivity and Strategic Communication: Understanding of Vatican operational complexity:

"there were some topics that we didn't you know, actually topics we didn't lean into heavily because you know, to do that a person. sensitivity makes sense"

Relationship Reward Recognition: Mark's understanding of political loyalty rewards:

Gary: "It's like yeah, the same thing people. It's like I know and have spoken of people who like put you know Modi into power, you know, the first point he was even a politician." Mark: "Yeah, so it's like it's weird how the world works it was that you know, and I don't know how I could get stuck in the world, but I keep out find by myself in weird fucking places continually."

2. Archbishop Timothy Dolan's Strategic Power Position

"Shadow Pope" Recognition: Mark's assessment of Dolan's influence within American Catholicism:

"Archbishop Dolan also one one drove the rest of the vote for the American... he's very powerful. So so so he he's like the shadow pope... he was the operating behind the scenes"

Financial Power and Trump Connection: Understanding of major Catholic Church funding dynamics:

"when you now things won kind of crazy and the church in America, that North America, and specifically United States ended a billion dollars, um, you know, Trump basically gave him over a billion dollars. and a billion dollars, bound to Vatican, not anything else"

Operational Authority Recognition: Mark's reading of Dolan's actual power:

"the way that Dolan carries himself, you can just tell from his body language, he's like, I own this shit. I run this shit."

3. Planned Vatican Strategic Visit (June 21, 2025)

High-Level Meeting Schedule: Mark's upcoming strategic Vatican engagement:

"he kind of wants to be out there for the 21st, uh, Ford... be there on the 20th, and then spend a couple of days at the Academy and then I' cardinals and then talk too"

AI Opinion Formation: Vatican leadership seeking AI strategic direction:

"Leo's got a show us an opinion although not well formed on AI. Right. And there and give a little bit more direction."

Strategic Positioning for New Pontificate: Mark's approach to fresh Vatican relationships:

"Well, now that there's a new po, it'll be a whole different... I don't have any, baggage. I don't I don't have all these other p that were, right? Okay. It's just, you know, it's just me and call kit."

4. Sacred Matrices: Religious AI Platform Development

Mission and Positioning: Mark's comprehensive religious technology vision:

"Sacred Matrices... established in 2025 by AI pioneers with a unique track record building foundational models for the Vatican OC governments and leading fortune 500 companies, master the creation of deeply domain specific, linguistically nuanced, culturally attuned AI. Mission is to build an auxiliary adoption of culturally attuned, faith aligned AI in service of global religions, preserving their wisdom and fostering deeper spiritual engagement"

Multi-Faith Market Strategy: Universal platform approach across religious denominations:

"it's basically tribe as a service, right? Like it's it's basically tribal tribal success and growth, like in flourishing as a service, right?... what what what religions are, is there like groups of people that want to succeed together"

G42 Partnership Opportunity: UAE AI company as potential first major client:

"there's this guy from the G 42, uh, who basically then approached a friend of mine... they were basically lamenting the fact that they need someone to help in and come in and help to solve their their AI problem. Yeah, because they basically blew $200 million with dump to show for it"

5. Meta-AI Model Innovation and Market Timing

Revolutionary Technical Approach: Mark's development of AI that creates domain-specific AI models:

"what I've been working on is making an AI model that makes domain specific AI models... I take in and test it now and actually works pretty well"

Market Demand Recognition: Understanding of current AI specialization needs:

"now up where I was was two years ago, with respect to the domain specific... And now for the first time, people are now asking for it"

Universal Stack Philosophy: Technical architecture that transcends specific applications:

"when you look at the stack, it's not, you know, the AI stack on developing, it just applied to multiple domains or verticals... The stack itself is agnostic to what is going to be working in, because that's just how GAI works"

6. Religious Technology Market Analysis and Funding Reality

Funding Source Recognition: Honest assessment of religious institution financial capacity:

"there's no religion that really has money or gives money per se. You had to go through the the externals... they're all looking for money at the same time anyway"

Strategic Approach to Mission-Oriented Work: Using commercial success to fund religious initiatives:

Gary: "you should get the money first so you have money to to so you have runway to be more mission oriented, right?" Mark: "Exactly"

Market Entry Strategy: Leveraging external funding to bootstrap religious applications:

"that sound like something that's a little bit that's doable, they've got cash, so that's something that could been bootstrap this initiative"

7. Gary's Dr. Alexander Introduction and Strategic Positioning

General Intelligence Recognition: Mark's assessment of exceptional talent:

Gary: "I'll send I'll send you more information about him, but I think that, like, he I imagine that he isn't one of the missing ingredients to this this like almost agency that you want to create" Mark: "his his general intelligence is like, really, again, only you two you are the only two people that I would put in this like super general intelligence sort of category"

Shenzhen Development Credibility: Dr. Alexander's proven large-scale capability:

Gary: "He's the the number one non Chinese person that helped turn Shen Zen from a fishing town into you know what it is now"

AGI Partnership Vision: Mark's conceptual framework for collaboration:

"I just feel like you guys are AGI... my simple mental model is that you guys can figure out whatever, and it's just a matter of, you know, that AGI needs needs its juice, right? It needs money, right?"

8. LDS/Mormon Strategic Opportunities Through Gary's Network

Travis Oliphant Access: NumPy creator providing LDS leadership access:

Gary: "one of my he's now like a close upset he's an emerging close friend and mentor type figure, Travis Oliphant, who um who, uh created numpy and scipy... him, um, alongside the Sneaker family would allow us to get access to the head of the LDS"

Heather Staker Educational Connection: Alpha Schools providing Salt Lake City entry point:

Gary: "the a Heather Staker, she's involved in this project I'm consulting for. She's um the alpha Schools project... she wants me to help start advanced schools um and possibly really advance schools in in in Salt Lake"

Multi-Denominational Competition Strategy: Understanding denominational technology rivalry:

Gary: "all these denominations want to basically show off who's the actual real denomination, right? So I think, like, I almost kind of envision like an AI as a service type thing"

9. Alpha Schools Assessment and Educational Technology Critique

Joe Liemandt Project Evaluation: Gary's honest assessment of Alpha Schools leadership:

Mark: "Now, is he doing this, you know, is this act funded it in like a done deal? Because last time you and I spoke, he said that there was some anomalies there." Gary: "I've only increased my view of the fictitious victi fictitiousness of it. I I realized that it is a well-marked mediocracy. That's the best way I would put it."

Leadership Critique: Gary's disappointment with Alpha Schools management:

"I've just been I've been completely underwhelmed by the leadership that he's hired. He's put around him completely underwhelmed"

Bigger Fish Recognition: Gary's strategic prioritization:

"my my um, where my intuition lies mark is that we have bigger fish to fry"

10. Startup Partnership Strategy and Control Requirements

Founding Team Ambition: Mark's clear vision for next venture:

"I know I'm not going to make a billion dollars consulting for a school system... what I wanted to do, that's that's what I want to do"

Competition Targeting: Aiming for major AI company competition level:

"I'm looking at no less than something that is seen widely as, you know, a competitor or that kind of thing to to that sort of thing"

Control Lessons Learned: Mark's previous startup experience insights:

"You need complete control of the company like a dictator... I didn't control the business let other people kind of dictate what the business side of the equation"

Consumer Product Revenue Strategy: Path to research funding independence:

"The only way that you have to be not reliant on government grants and stuff is that you have like a fucking huge consumer products and whatever or multiple, right?"

11. Collaboration Assessment and Team Quality Standards

Matthew (Magisteria) Resource Analysis: Understanding of funding inadequacy:

"he doesn't have enough financial resources to do what he needs to do... his his round that he got it's almost nothing... over a third of it disappears it goes directly into the SMA company to do the scanners for the archives"

Scale Mismatch Recognition: Technology funding reality check:

"$600,000 on the scanners... a half million dollars is not that big of a deal for tech. No, it's tiny"

John (Previous Collaborator) Critique: Mark's assessment of ineffective team members:

"I just brought negative value to me, right? I just felt like, you know, I was like, what what is this guy's role?... And it was actually just negative energy that I felt"

High Standards Requirement: Recognition of need for exceptional capability:

"if you're going to build a killer startup or ecosystem of startups, so like I don't think that you need people there that are hundred percent in and hundred percent capable"

12. Investment Strategy and Market Entry Planning

Limited Initial Funding Strategy: Mark's approach to maintaining control:

"I need to choose the r... do a quick little seven million PC, and then we just basically run from that... don't too much from there because then that's where I've always have the problem that I didn't control the business"

Market Demand Validation: Recognition of current AI specialization opportunity:

"for the first time, people are now asking for it... that's why I wanted to do a new startup. I focus on where the market demand now is, but also make it way more advanced"

Personal and Professional Context

Mark's Geographic Flexibility and Resources

Seattle Base with Compound Property: Multiple location availability:

Gary: "Do you have a bunch of sheep, or is that a different property?" Mark: "that's a different property. that's not this one. This is my house in Seattle"

Recent Startup Exit Success: Financial resources for new ventures:

Gary: "So did you get you got a few million from that or what?" Mark: "Good, good."

Long-Term Relationship Maintenance Philosophy

Quarter-Century Partnership with John: Despite current critique, relationship preservation:

"we still I mean, I've done today we got a you know, a quarter of a century on relationship. That's not gonna go away overnight... sometimes we just need to break from the, you know, the muses. and that way you couldn't back in"

Gary's Location Independence and Strategic Availability

Austin Base with Flexibility: Geographic availability for collaboration:

Gary: "I'm in I'm in Austin... I'm very not, you know, constrained by location. So, wherever wherever the mission and opportunity needs to take me and us, I'm I'm very open to it"

Strategic Partnership Framework Development

Immediate Collaboration Opportunities

1. Vatican AI Strategic Consulting: Mark's June 21st Rome visit creating immediate opportunity for Gary's network integration
2. Dr. Alexander Technology Integration: Potential three-way collaboration combining Mark's religious access, Gary's strategic networks, and Dr. Alexander's technical capabilities
3. LDS Market Entry: Travis Oliphant and Heather Staker connections providing Mormon technology market access
4. Sacred Matrices Platform Development: Religious AI platform requiring Gary's network orchestration and strategic narrative development

Resource Alignment Analysis

Mark's Contributions:

• Vatican and Catholic Church institutional access
• Archbishop Dolan relationship for American Catholic market
• AI technical expertise in domain-specific model development
• Recent startup exit providing financial resources
• G42 connections for Islamic market applications

Gary's Contributions:

• Dr. Alexander introduction and partnership facilitation
• LDS access through Travis Oliphant relationship
• Strategic network orchestration across multiple domains
• Government and policy connections
• Cultural and religious bridge-building capabilities

Market Entry Strategy Coordination

Multi-Faith Platform Vision: Leveraging denominational competition for technology adoption:

"what I basically wanted to do was a a different AI startup, that is is a much more attuned to the problem said... The stack itself is agnostic to what is going to be working in, because that's just how GAI works"

Commercial Bootstrap Strategy: Using external funding to enable mission-oriented development:

"that sound like something that's a little bit that's doable, they've got cash, so that's something that could been bootstrap this initiative"

Technology Development and Innovation Framework

Meta-AI Model Commercialization

Technical Innovation: Mark's breakthrough in AI model generation:

"what I've been working on is making an AI model that makes domain specific AI models"

Market Timing Optimization: Recognition of current demand for specialized AI solutions:

"for the first time, people are now asking for it"

Religious Technology Stack Architecture

Universal Application Framework: Technical approach transcending specific religious domains:

"The stack itself is agnostic to what is going to be working in, because that's just how GAI works. There's nothing that's that's nuanced about trading a model for a group you know, that's a that would be a religious model, versus one that has to be sensitive to government needs or corporate needs"

Catholic Church Strategic Analysis

Financial and Political Power Structure

Trump Administration Relationship: Understanding of major funding flows:

"when you now things won kind of crazy and the church in America, that North America, and specifically United States ended a billion dollars, um, you know, Trump basically gave him over a billion dollars"

Archbishop Dolan Authority: Recognition of operational power concentration:

"he was the operating behind the scenes... the way that Dolan carries himself, you can just tell from his body language, he's like, I own this shit. I run this shit"

Vatican Technology Integration Opportunities

AI Strategy Development Need: Vatican leadership seeking technological direction:

"Leo's got a show us an opinion although not well formed on AI. Right. And there and give a little bit more direction"

Fresh Relationship Advantage: Mark's positioning with new pontificate:

"Well, now that there's a new po, it'll be a whole different... I don't have any, baggage"

Key Quotes Collection

On Vatican Crisis Management:

"I saved his ass... I gave them all the receipts, so I made the uh I made the conversation uh very hard to adore. It's like, hey, here's weight and wrong, and this is the right thing to do."

On Archbishop Dolan's Power:

"he's like the shadow pope... he was the operating behind the scenes"

On Religious Technology Market:

"it's basically tribe as a service, right? Like it's it's basically tribal tribal success and growth, like in flourishing as a service"

On Meta-AI Innovation:

"what I've been working on is making an AI model that makes domain specific AI models"

On Gary and Dr. Alexander Partnership:

"I just feel like you guys are AGI... my simple mental model is that you guys can figure out whatever, and it's just a matter of, you know, that AGI needs needs its juice, right? It needs money, right?"

On Alpha Schools Assessment:

"I I realized that it is a well-marked mediocracy. That's the best way I would put it."

On Startup Control Requirements:

"You need complete control of the company like a dictator"

On Market Entry Strategy:

"you should get the money first so you have money to to so you have runway to be more mission oriented, right?"

On Religious Funding Reality:

"there's no religion that really has money or gives money per se. You had to go through the the externals"

On Technical Stack Philosophy:

"The stack itself is agnostic to what is going to be working in, because that's just how GAI works"

Strategic Implications and Next Steps

Vatican Technology Integration Pathway

Mark's June 21st Vatican visit represents immediate opportunity for introducing Gary's network and Dr. Alexander's capabilities to highest levels of Catholic Church leadership, potentially creating unprecedented religious technology collaboration.

Multi-Faith Platform Development

The combination of Mark's Catholic access, Gary's LDS connections through Travis Oliphant, and potential Islamic market entry through G42 creates framework for universal religious technology platform serving multiple major faith traditions.

AI Industry Competition Positioning

Mark's meta-AI model development combined with Gary's strategic network orchestration and Dr. Alexander's technical capabilities positions potential collaboration to compete directly with major AI companies while serving specialized religious and institutional markets.

Investment and Control Strategy

Mark's emphasis on limited initial funding while maintaining control, combined with his recent startup exit resources, provides framework for building significant AI company without external control compromises.

Follow-Through Requirements

Immediate Actions

1. Dr. Alexander Information Sharing: Gary to provide comprehensive background on Dr. Alexander's capabilities and Shenzhen development experience
2. Vatican Visit Coordination: Potential integration of Gary's network into Mark's June 21st Rome strategic meetings
3. LDS Access Facilitation: Coordination with Travis Oliphant and Heather Staker for Mormon market entry
4. Sacred Matrices Development Planning: Technical and business development coordination for religious AI platform

Strategic Partnerships

• Three-Way Collaboration: Mark's religious access + Gary's network orchestration + Dr. Alexander's technical capabilities
• Multi-Faith Market Entry: Coordinated approach across Catholic, LDS, and Islamic technology applications
• Government and Enterprise Integration: Leveraging Mark's government AI experience with Gary's policy connections

Notes

This conversation represents a significant strategic convergence between Gary's network orchestration capabilities and Mark's institutional religious access combined with advanced AI technical expertise. Mark's successful navigation of Vatican politics, direct access to Archbishop Dolan, and development of meta-AI models creates exceptional foundation for faith-based technology initiatives.

The discussion reveals sophisticated understanding of religious technology market dynamics, including funding realities and competitive opportunities across denominational boundaries. Mark's emphasis on control and capability standards, combined with his recent startup exit success, positions him as both capable technical partner and strategic business leader.

Gary's introduction of Dr. Alexander as potential collaboration partner demonstrates his continued strategy of connecting exceptional talents around transformational opportunities. The combination of Vatican access, LDS connections, and advanced AI capabilities creates unprecedented potential for religious technology platform development.

The honest assessment of existing projects (Alpha Schools, Magisteria) and collaborators demonstrates both participants' commitment to high standards and realistic evaluation of partnership opportunities. Mark's recognition of Gary and Dr. Alexander as "super general intelligence" indicates his understanding of the caliber of collaboration being discussed.

Key Themes: Vatican AI strategy, religious technology platforms, meta-AI model development, institutional access, startup partnership formation, multi-faith market opportunities, and strategic network orchestration.