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Transcript: Mark Baciak and Gary Sheng - Matthew Sanders Investigation and Vatican Strategy

Date: October 23, 2025 Participants: Mark Baciak, Gary Sheng Context: Confidential call regarding serious concerns about Matthew Sanders (Magisteria/Longbeard founder) and strategic pivot for Vatican AI initiatives

Executive Summary​

Mark Baciak calls Gary Sheng seeking advice after discovering multiple instances of fraud and deception by Matthew Sanders, including a 10,000x exaggeration of user numbers (claiming 100M vs actual 13,800) and material misrepresentation during fundraising. Cardinal Turkson's damning assessment after 7-8 years confirms Sanders exploits the Church without providing value. Mark decides to cut Sanders out completely and work directly with Vatican officials on Pope Leo's sovereign AI initiative.

Opening - Request for Confidential Discussion​

Mark Baciak: Opens by updating Gary on conversations with Cardinal Turkson, then requests confidentiality:

"So now this is a, can we have a confidential conversation or do you feel awkward about that?"

Initial Question About Matthew Sanders:

"So what do you think about Matthew Sanders?"

Gary provides diplomatic response about Sanders being friendly and good at organizing conferences, but admits limited business dealing experience with him.

Matthew Sanders Red Flags Discovery​

Trust and Business Concerns​

Mark's Assessment Framework:

"Everything is neat until you start doing business with somebody where financials are involved, then you get to typically people behave one way. Once money gets involved, they start and behave a completely different way."

Discovery of Lies​

Legal Discrepancies:

"Unfortunately the things that he had stated to be factual and what his lawyer, Laura has stated, the facts didn't reconcile... either one of them is lying and I doubt it's the lawyer cause it would be, she would be disbarred."

Mark's Conclusion:

"Unfortunately I caught him in a series of lies."

User Count Fraud Investigation​

Gary's Suspicion​

Gary Questions User Numbers:

"I just feel like that's, it was super off and I, it didn't really matter to me, to like look into it. Cause I wasn't involved in it, but I just felt like the number was so off."

Mark's Empirical Evidence​

Database Analysis from Neural Fabric Days:

"When I was at Neural Fabric, they gave us their entire database of every prompt that's ever happened for the last several years. And we actually did an account to the unique users. The unique user account was less than 13,000."

Scale of Deception:

"So how can you say a hundred million users?"

Gary's calculation: "That's ten thousand times exaggeration, which is so egregious. It's not like a 50 percent exaggeration. It's ten thousand."

Mark on Fundraising Fraud:

"When you're doing a raise, if you give out factually or material deficient information is considered fraud and a felony, you cannot lie to your investors... if it's material different, it's considered fraud."

Cardinal Turkson's Assessment​

Meeting Updates​

Mark's Recent Conversations:

"I had a great conversation or a series of conversations with Cardinal Turkson."

Turkson on Matthew Sanders​

Seven Years of Observation:

"I asked Turkson indirectly about Sanders and he was like, 'Oh yeah, he's a great guy who talks, but doesn't know how to do. He's like, but he's good for organizing conferences that don't do anything.'"

Church Exploitation:

"He had a really strange word for it... basically roughly translates to he prostitutes out the church for his company... all it does is cost the church money and nothing gets given back to the church."

Exclusion from Sovereign AI Initiative​

Zero Tolerance:

"But he's like, Matthew cannot be a part of this zero."

This refers to the Church's position on sovereign AI that Mark and Turkson are developing for Pope Leo.

Vatican Politics and Pope Leo​

Failed October AI Conference​

Cardinals' Presentation Rejected:

"Apparently, they presented it very just a little bit ago to Pope Leo, and he fucking hated it, just hated it."

Turkson's Dissenting Position Validated​

Mark Explains Turkson's Rise:

"Cardinal Turkson... basically had the dissenting opinion. And then of course, Leo looked at it, hated what they produced. And then he saw that Turkson actually had the dissenting opinion... that now puts Turkson in pole position."

Turkson's Criticism of Other Cardinals:

"You guys are just talking shit. This is not how we should be pursuing it. You're not actually answering the core questions. And everything that you're doing here is all airplay that has nothing to do with how AI actually works."

Business Integrity Issues​

Payment Breach​

Agreed Work Not Compensated:

"We did some work for him and that costs us about a hundred thousand dollars. And I said, 'Hey, Matthew, we're going to do this for you... I need to bill you... I'm only going to bill you like 10 grand.'"

Broken Promise:

"As of this morning, we were told that they're not paying the invoice because we don't have a master service agreement. And the earliest that they're going to look at one is going to be January."

IP Theft Concerns​

Using Mark's Ideas for Fundraise:

"The premise around his $100 million raise were ideas that I gave him on where the future and directions are going. And he's now using that as part of his material... but between you and the wall, he has no clue what he's talking about because these aren't his ideas."

Vatican Archive Ownership Scheme​

Mark Discovers Hidden Agenda:

"The digitization efforts, he's doing it so that he actually owns the digital archives, not the Vatican... they're getting those scanners for free because he gets the product of the scanners."

Conference Strategy Changes​

Matthew's Mixed Messages​

Conflicting Communications About Conference Importance:

"When we last spoke a couple weeks ago, like investors are going to be there. It was very important that I speak to them. And then all today, it's like, 'oh, yeah, it's nice if you're there, but you don't have to be.'"

Laura's Different Message:

"Laura basically had then said that it was important for me to show up so that I can explain to the investors how Longbeard is going to implement their technology for the 100 million dollar raise."

Mark's Flight Changes​

Minimizing Conference Attendance:

"After what happened today, I've now officially changed my flight as of 20 minutes ago... I get there on the 7th in the morning, and then I'm going to drop into the conference right after lunch. I'm only going to spend a couple hours at the conference."

Others Avoiding Conference​

Trend of Avoidance:

"I actually had a couple of people contacting me. They're like, 'Hey, can we just meet up?'... 'we want to meet up, not at the conference.'"

Vatican's Attraction of Opportunists​

Mark's Observation​

Systemic Problem:

"I think the Vatican attracts some of the worst people on the planet. To be quite candid. And Turkson also made that statement previously to me before... '99% of the people who come through here are just figuring out how to use us.'"

Pattern Recognition​

Mark's Frustration:

"Why is it every person I've been involved with that involves the church have this strange arc where on the outside they seem like they are the most religious, earnest people. But when push comes to shove, they're the opposite."

Strategic Decision Making​

Gary's Assessment​

Cutting Out the Middleman:

"With this context, it's just completely obvious now... that you should just cut out the middle man. And I say this with self-awareness that we wouldn't have met without him. But that's sometimes how things work out."

Mark's Vatican Strategy​

Direct Approach:

"My meetings at the Vatican will be with the power players at the Vatican who make these decisions. I won't be at the father level. I'm going to be at the cardinal slash pope level."

Taking Over Vatican Archives: When Gary suggests Mark would take over the digitization project:

Gary: "Then you would just take it over." Mark: "Oh, 100 percent. Yeah, I just kicked him out."

Sovereign AI Development​

Direct Vatican Partnership:

"Just do what the church has asked me to do and just work with them directly."

Reading in Turkson:

"I'm going to also then read in completely Turkson when I'm there in physical person to the pilgrimage centers, because I tell you, we put a lot of work into that. And I still think that thing is magic."

Conference Venue Issues​

Limited Support​

Only Father Nazir Hosting:

"Now it's at the Greg. The only reason why it's at the Gregorian is because the only person who would host him is Father David Nazir. So why wouldn't any other cardinal host you?"

Gregorian Contact's Assessment​

Another Negative Review:

"What are your opinions on him? He's like, 'well, I think that... my thoughts are like, oh, shit, because he's an American. He starts dancing for words... 'I think at one time his heart was in the right place. I don't know where it is today.'"

Character Analysis​

Matthew's Motivations​

Fame-Seeking Behavior:

"He's also aggressively seeking fame right now. You know, he likes to name drop... 'I'm going to be in The New York Times. I'm going to be on this radio show.'"

Legacy Without Children:

Mark: "Maybe this is his way of providing legacy because he wants to become famous. That way he lives on."

Co-opting the Church​

Mark's Observation:

"He is the church... if I didn't know any better, I think that he is the church."

Gary's Agreement:

"Yeah, that he's like the CTO of the church."

Mark's Response:

"Well, that job was offered to me."

Business Philosophy Discussion​

Control Requirements​

Mark References Past Lessons:

"You need complete control of the company like a dictator... I didn't control the business let other people kind of dictate what the business side of the equation."

No Threats Policy​

Mark's Approach:

"I'm not going to bring this up with them at all... Don't telegraph... If you're going to do something, just do it."

"I'm just maneuvering around him. And that's why I'm setting up all these meetings with several different dicasteries and cardinals when I'm there so that I can actually move forward specifically with the church directly without him in the line."

Gary's Reflections​

Initial Impressions vs Reality​

Mistaken Assessment:

"My impression before you share this information today was Matthew has amazing relationships internally and that was a big part of the value that he brought to the table."

Reality Check:

"But if key relationships just absolutely do not want to work with him... especially with this new information, then it feels like another situation where you're just cutting out middlemen."

Humanity 2.0 Critique​

Lack of Substance:

"What did it really accomplish? It gathered a bunch of name brands. That's what it did. And that might be the consistent pattern of just the initiatives. There's little output, a lot of just sucking of brand value."

Board Quality:

"I was so thoroughly unimpressed by some of the people that he brought into his board or advisory council for Humanity 2.0. Almost none of them do anything."

Future Plans​

Gary's Commitment​

Working with Mark:

"I want to work on it with you. So the more that you basically have unencumbered... monopoly... over who is trusted with technology and innovation. I think it will just be easier to get things done."

Church Reform Potential​

Gary's Vision:

"If there's an opportunity to really level up across every aspect. That's a great thing for the church... without great reform... they might have 30 years left. But with better leadership and better technology that might change."

Pope Leo Advantage​

Language and Understanding:

Mark: "There's going to be zero language barrier." Gary: "I know you could speak Spanish, but..." Mark: "My Spanish sucks... Whereas with this one, there's going to be none of that impediment."

Closing Confirmation​

Mark's Validation:

"I just want to run this by you. Do a quick little table check. And I think I got what I wanted out of this, which is pretty much what you thought."

Gary's Support:

"The truth is uncomfortable, as you know. But it looks like it's all heading in the right direction."

Final Reassurance:

Mark: "I really appreciate your time and we'll see each other soon." Gary: "Yes, sir. Talk soon."

Key Takeaways​

  1. Fraud Scale: Matthew Sanders' 10,000x user exaggeration (100M claimed vs 13,800 actual) constitutes material misrepresentation and potential felony fraud

  2. Vatican Rejection: After 7-8 years, Cardinal Turkson completely rejects Sanders, calling him someone who "prostitutes out the church for his company"

  3. Strategic Pivot: Mark Baciak cutting Sanders out entirely, working directly with Vatican on Pope Leo's sovereign AI initiative

  4. Conference Dynamics: November 2025 Vatican conference becoming problematic with key participants minimizing attendance or avoiding entirely

  5. Direct Vatican Access: Mark establishing cardinal and pope-level relationships, bypassing traditional conference circuit

  6. Pattern Recognition: Both Mark and Gary recognizing Sanders as another opportunist exploiting religious institutions for personal gain

  7. Business Integrity: Multiple instances of payment breaches, IP theft, and conflicting statements confirming Sanders' untrustworthiness

  8. Future Opportunity: With Sanders removed as middleman, clearer path for legitimate Vatican technology initiatives under Pope Leo's leadership